香港長跑網 - 長跑長友

標題: 全馬的訓練 [打印本頁]

作者: kopo1128 時間: 2008-8-11 16:25
標題: 全馬的訓練
ching ctse,

我看完馮兩努的新書"從減肥至馬拉松". 當中提到要完成馬拉松, 每周的累積里數起碼要有80km甚至更高. 但是, 又有人說完成馬拉松的累積里數約40-50km/week. 究竟那一個說法較合理. 我想80km/week真是有些難度, 時間分配已是大問題. 不知各ching ctse 有何高見??

作者: kenneth 時間: 2008-8-11 16:31
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作者: clerkb 時間: 2008-8-11 16:32
我認為(亦試過)只為完成 40-50 km 以可. 80km /week 已經可跑sub four 的.

當然你要知道每人都有不同差別. 有些紅肌多些(耐力較強), 有些白肌多些(有好d的爆炸力) . 如果要練80km /week 才可完成, 底子真不是好了

作者: lvrunner 時間: 2008-8-11 20:47
Hi kopo hing,

clerkb hing is right. Minimum is around 30 to 35 miles (50 to 60km) a week, average is around 40 miles (70km). If you plan on running a sub 3 marathon then you need to up the mileage to at least 60 to 80 miles (100 to 140km). I have a friend that only runs one marathon a year. He only runs 20 miles (35km) a week. But remember kopo hing, this is not a black and white thing, It is absolutely fine is you don't reach the target mileage for the week. Hope this help.

作者: clerkb 時間: 2008-8-11 21:54
我都同意 , 100km 至 140km 係可挑戰 sub-three

作者: rockstarman 時間: 2008-8-11 23:01
小弟覺得什麼 K 數都好，只是指標參考而已，書本是死物，它不會知道你的身素質可以達到那一個水平，如真的想跑得更加好，只有活生生血淋淋的專業教練觀察過你才是可靠呢。

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[ 本帖最後由 rockstarman 於 2008-8-11 23:03 編輯 ]

作者: blurmax 時間: 2008-8-11 23:23

只有活生生血淋淋的專業教練觀察過你才是可靠呢。

活生生 is enough, no need to be 血淋淋的專業教練 wor

作者: kopo1128 時間: 2008-8-12 10:30
多謝各ching ctse 寶貴意見!! 我想我現在累積距離大約50-60km/week. 我都想再提高多些. 希望初步可以去到85km/week ( 13km x5 + 20km) . 然後再慢慢提高. 不過, 近日經常落雨, 都無得跑. 不過, 連跑六日, 會唔會對膝頭唔太好???

作者: kenneth 時間: 2008-8-12 10:45
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作者: Ning 時間: 2008-8-12 10:46
C-Hing, you can try the following training program. Please make sure that you have enough rest during the training.

http://www.halhigdon.com/marathon/Mar00index.htm

作者: clerkb 時間: 2008-8-12 11:21
如果你要走 85k per wk, 四日少不了. 要睇係既速度可否走到這個里數, 還要注意你要找一日作speedwork (不會太長的課) , 而一開始如果初初跑的, 一開始基本上不能跑 30k or 以上的(能亦好大機會回不切, 影響往後的訓練). 所以我結論係要五日的, 只可在長課同速度課後作休息 . 而兩課前一日亦不可去得太盡,

ps: 我都試過跟 halhigdon 練. 不過我覺得吾夠量的 , 但可講自己認為自己的耐力是比較差的

作者: kopo1128 時間: 2008-8-12 11:31

原帖由 kennethwat 於 2008-8-12 10:45 發表

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絶對會對膝頭不太好。可以 20kmx2 30-40kmx1 咁一星期就有四日時間休息，不過都很甘。

我試過出差時,每日跑十公里加一些器械(在香港反而沒有時間這樣做). 發覺雙腳及雙膝沒有問題, 十公里應該不算是太長的距離, 加多點點公里對膝頭的影響應該不會太嚴重吧?? 我每天有游水35-40分鐘才上班, 但覺得這樣對訓練全馬的耐力作用不大,所以想改為跑步, 不過又怕傷膝?? 不知點算??

作者: lvrunner 時間: 2008-8-12 12:16
Kopo hing, out of 7 days, you definitely need one day of complete rest, one day of cross train, one day of long run, three days of regular runs and one day of anything (like hill, tempo, intervals.....etc). Actually, swimming is a good cross training exercise. It is not meant to be an endurance exercise. Like Ning said, Higdon has a good training plan, same as Jeff Galloway.

There is another plan called the F.I.R.S.T (3 plus 2) program which only requires 3 days of running and two days of cross training. FIRST stands for Furman Institute of Running and Scientific Training. Here is their website.

FIRST

作者: miller 時間: 2008-8-12 12:22
首先，練幾多量同你訂o既目標再加上自己本身o既能力好有關…

好似我自己咁，我未跑過全馬，如果要我好有信心可以o向3小時內跑完一個全馬，我相信我最高o既里數﹙賽前3-4星期﹚應該要去到75km/week or above…再加上我希望呢幾年打好半馬速度基礎，我都係等多3年先會試全馬…

而如果一般基礎體能同埋跑步經驗唔係太好o既跑手，以5小時完成為目標，應該60-70km/week都可以安全做到…

作者: blurmax 時間: 2008-8-12 13:11

Miller,

Completing a full marathon within 3 hrs should not have any problem to U! Just do it!

http://hk.myblog.yahoo.com/blurmax

[ 本帖最後由 blurmax 於 2008-8-12 13:15 編輯 ]

作者: kopo1128 時間: 2008-8-12 14:30
I just want to finish a full marathon within 5 hrs. So, I will try to have the training suggested by FIRST and see how the progress is. In fact, I travel quite frequently and it is not easy for me to do the exercise regularly even though I am trying my best. Anyway, thanks a lot for all ching and ctse!

作者: miller 時間: 2008-8-12 17:08
標題: 回復 15# 的帖子
半馬跑得好唔代表全馬就係用條formula (HM result x 2 + 10min)計到出黎，尤其好似我呢d人，無一課長課係會長過16km，去走全馬同送死無分別。我慢慢jog 1:30:00頭半程唔代表我可以仲有力1:30:00尾半程架嘛…

P.S. 我唔係著NIKE比賽，just do it唔係我口號，just buy it我就成日叫人地喇﹙睇住人地買野o個陣﹚

作者: lvrunner 時間: 2008-8-12 22:07

原帖由 kopo1128 於 2008-8-11 22:30 發表

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I just want to finish a full marathon within 5 hrs. So, I will try to have the training suggested by FIRST and see how the progress is. In fact, I travel quite frequently and it is not easy for me t ...

Good luck kopo hing, let us know your progress. I know a guy used this program last year and he only ran on the treadmill, guess what? He actually qualified for Boston

作者: 叮叮噹 時間: 2008-8-12 23:46
I can't open those training program in the web!
Help!

作者: nc 時間: 2008-8-12 23:49

原帖由 叮叮噹 於 2008-8-12 23:46 發表

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I can't open those training program in the web!
Help!

me2, nothing inside

作者: spmho 時間: 2008-8-12 23:55

原帖由 叮叮噹 於 2008-8-12 23:46 發表

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I can't open those training program in the web!
Help!

原帖由 obaanc 於 2008-8-12 23:49 發表

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me2, nothing inside

兩位師姐，我估你地一定以為係click "First Training Program"
但應該係睇佢下面d pdf file
如10k training，half marathon training.....

作者: Ning 時間: 2008-8-12 23:56
C-Hing, you can try some 10K and HM to test your timing before your first FM.

作者: lvrunner 時間: 2008-8-13 04:45
各位師兄/師姐,

此 FIRST training program 是北美洲一個極之popular嘅program, target to runners that don't want to run so many days. If you are really interested about it. I strongly suggest you also get the book too. It tells you more details about the program. The book only costs $11US, I am not sure if it is sold in HK, may be it can be ordered. It is published by Rodale (the same publisher for Runner's World magazine). ISBN is 1-59486-649-X

Stanley hing and Alex hing, this is a book you two might be interested.

[ 本帖最後由 lvrunner 於 2008-8-12 12:46 編輯 ]

作者: 力 時間: 2008-8-13 08:08
Let me check could it be find in HK.

作者: clerkb 時間: 2008-8-13 09:41

原帖由 kopo1128 於 2008-8-12 14:30 發表

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I just want to finish a full marathon within 5 hrs. So, I will try to have the training suggested by FIRST and see how the progress is. In fact, I travel quite frequently and it is not easy for me t ...

如果抽吾到時間, 跑住半馬, 10 K 都冇所謂啦. 等到時間許可再練全馬啦.

作者: kopo1128 時間: 2008-8-13 09:45

原帖由 Ning 於 2008-8-12 23:56 發表

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C-Hing, you can try some 10K and HM to test your timing before your first FM.

I have already had several times of HM (2hr+) and many times of 10km (sub 55min) experience. This is the reason why I want to challenge myself by taking the FM.

Ivrunner ching, surely I will let you know the progress. By the way, I will try a 35km LSD this weekend to have a feeling of running over 30km. How old is your friend? I can never imagine I can get the entry ticket for Boston Marathon as it requires me to finish the FM within something like 3:20 or 3:30. I thought I can hardly achieve such goal. If I can have a sub 4hrs result, it is great for me already.

作者: Alfred 時間: 2008-8-13 09:48

原帖由 Alex 於 13/8/2008 08:08 發表

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Let me check could it be find in HK.

If can be found in HK, can we buy in bulk to get a discount?

作者: thomasleung 時間: 2008-8-13 10:12
kopo1228,

You can also refer to this link for your reference if you want to train only 3 days a week for a marathon...
http://www.runnersworld.com/article/0,7120,s6-238-244-255-8257-0,00.html

In fact, I read 2 marathon books but did not find much difference from the information in the website (in terms of principles). The basic idea is to gradually build up a milage foundation and be accustomed to running long. That is why most training plan requires you to run a long run (20+ km) a week. Before the race, If you can finish 2-3 x 30km+ LSD without injury and much pain, you can finish the marathon easily.

PS : I am a lazy (and busy) runner; therefore I cannot afford to train 5-6 days a week. Basically what I have done was 1-3 regular runs of around 10km each in weekday and a long run in the weekend (from 15km to 30km). I trained around around 30km a week in average, so my result was not good

PPS : Of course, different people have different physique and require different training. I am telling you my experience for your reference only. FYI, apart from running, I also do seriously some gym, basketball as cross training.

作者: lvrunner 時間: 2008-8-13 10:24

原帖由 kopo1128 於 2008-8-12 17:45 發表

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Ivrunner ching, surely I will let you know the progress. By the way, I will try a 35km LSD this weekend to have a feeling of running over 30km. How old is your friend? I can never imagine I can get the entry ticket for Boston Marathon as it requires me to finish the FM within something like 3:20 or 3:30. I thought I can hardly achieve such goal. If I can have a sub 4hrs result, it is great for me already.

Hi kopo hing, The guy that qualified for Boston using the FIRST program is 43 years old, his latest marathon time was 3:17. He lives in Rochester, New York, tons of snow in winter time and he doesn't like running in the snow, so he did all his training on a treadmill. He only started running merely over 2 years ago but this guy has a lot of determination trying to BQ.

I am doing a 15 miler (25km) this Sunday as well. Good luck on your LSD, make sure you lube yourself well and don't forget the bandages on the nipples.

作者: kopo1128 時間: 2008-8-13 14:11

原帖由 lvrunner 於 2008-8-13 10:24 發表

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Hi kopo hing, The guy that qualified for Boston using the FIRST program is 43 years old, his latest marathon time was 3:17. He lives in Rochester, New York, tons of snow in winter time and he doesn ...

Thank you very much for your advance!! Surely I will lube myself since I don't want to have the same lesson I got in my 10hr hikking last time.

作者: louis 時間: 2008-8-13 18:19

原帖由 blurmax 於 2008-8-12 13:11 發表

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Miller,

Completing a full marathon within 3 hrs should not have any problem to U! Just do it!" />

http://hk.myblog.yahoo.com/blurmax

I am in a different world

Reading posts in this board make me want to train to run faster

作者: daniel0415 時間: 2008-8-15 10:45
請問各位在練長課(Over 3小時)時，是如何補充體能的呢？食Power Gel還是其它的?

作者: clerkb 時間: 2008-8-15 11:10
其實我只飲水的. 要的話, 米食law.

作者: lvrunner 時間: 2008-8-15 11:26

原帖由 daniel0415 於 2008-8-14 18:45 發表

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請問各位在練長課(Over 3小時)時，是如何補充體能的呢？食Power Gel還是其它的?

I don't like Power Gel, too sweet for me. I like Hammer Gel, Gatorade and the new 0 calories Powerade. I take one gel every 75 minutes. And alternate between water and those sport drinks I mentioned above.

作者: lvrunner 時間: 2008-8-15 11:34

原帖由 clerkb 於 2008-8-14 19:10 發表

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其實我只飲水的. 要的話, 米食law.

Really!!! You sweat and don't replenish your lost electrolytes (sodium, potassium, magnesium.....etc)?

作者: clerkb 時間: 2008-8-15 11:43
係呀, 同朋友一齊跑的. 兩個都冇食野. 只次都定最底消費(最少跑幾耐), 跑完去飲思樂冰

跑後真係成褲salt . 不過我比賽時有食gel 嫁

作者: daniel0415 時間: 2008-8-15 13:31
咁即係平時訓練可以唔晒食，正式比賽時才食。（但會唔會腸胃一下子不適，會突然搞．．腸沙

)

作者: desmond 時間: 2008-8-15 14:38
其實我覺得練習試下食都好，你知啦，有的gel既味真係麻麻。重有就係你唔食過唔知乎自己適唔適合食gel。
lvrunner兄: 請問hammer gel 同power gel分別在那？因為香港唔覺有.....

作者: lvrunner 時間: 2008-8-16 13:00

原帖由 yungwai 於 2008-8-14 22:38 發表

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其實我覺得練習試下食都好，你知啦，有的gel既味真係麻麻。重有就係你唔食過唔知乎自己適唔適合食gel。
lvrunner兄: 請問hammer gel 同power gel分別在那？因為香港唔覺有.....

yungwai hing,

Hammer gel uses complex cabohydrates as sugar, other gels like Power gel, Clif Shot, GU.......etc use simple sugar as carbohydrates. It is the complex sugar that fuel the body to run longer not simple sugar., simple sugar just stored inside your tissue and then turned into fat eventually. Also Hammer gel is very mild and it is isotonic, it doesn't draw water or fluid into the stomach anc causes stomach problem like stomachache or diarrhea. Sorry I don't know how to say all this in Chinese.

作者: oscar 時間: 2008-8-17 12:00
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作者: lvrunner 時間: 2008-8-17 12:28
Hi Oscar hing. If you are still in Toronto, you can get it from all these stores. I know they don't carry it in any of the Running Rooms. Try it yourself, Hammer gels are not as sweet as other gels. I love the Espresso favour.

Chain Reaction Cycle
4231 Dundas St. W.
(416) 234-5300

Cyclepath Bloor
1204 Bloor St. W.
(416) 533-4481

La Bicicletta
1180 Castlefield Ave.
(416) 762-2679

La Carrera
195 Harbord St
(416) 538-1203

Racer Sportif
2214 Bloor St W
(416) 769-5731

Sport Swap
2045 Yonge St
(416) 481-0249

Wheels on Bloor
2007B Bloor Street W.
(416) 762-7119

[ 本帖最後由 lvrunner 於 2008-8-17 20:18 編輯 ]

作者: oscar 時間: 2008-8-18 13:00
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作者: lvrunner 時間: 2008-8-18 13:35

原帖由 oscar 於 2008-8-17 21:00 發表

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多謝大衛兄咁有心幫小弟搵埋地址，如果我早啲知道，都或者會去睇吓，但係我聽日就要去溫哥華，睇黎都係無時間！可惜！

No problem Oscar hing, you can get it in Honcouver too! I mean.........Vancouver.

Hammer Gel

Wow, you can go visit PNE (Pacific National Exhibition) with your family while in Vancouver.

[ 本帖最後由 lvrunner 於 2008-8-18 10:25 編輯 ]

作者: Sicily 時間: 2008-8-18 22:52
標題: 回復 14# 的帖子
其實一般講o既里數包唔包括熱身慢跑ga?

作者: desmond 時間: 2008-8-18 23:22

原帖由 lvrunner 於 2008-8-16 13:00 發表

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yungwai hing,

Hammer gel uses complex cabohydrates as sugar, other gels like Power gel, Clif Shot, GU.......etc use simple sugar as carbohydrates. It is the complex sugar that fuel the body to ...

thank you lvrunner c-hing, i tried to look for hammer gel in Hk but cant find it. By the way, if we are running after 30K and we have used up most of our glycogen storage in the liver (hit the wall), is it better for we to get simple sugar which is ready for instant conversion of energy or complex sugar which requires further breaking down into simple sugar before being utilized.

作者: lvrunner 時間: 2008-8-19 02:20

原帖由 yungwai 於 2008-8-18 07:22 發表

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......is it better for we to get simple sugar which is ready for instant conversion of energy or complex sugar which requires further breaking down into simple sugar before being utilized.

.
Hi yungwai hing,

Definitely, we call it "glycogen debt". It is always a good idea to carry a couple of glucose tabs (simple sugar) when doing LSD or marathon. This is also why carbo-loading is very important the night before LSD or marathon.

In hospital when a patient is being wheeled into the Emergency Room with low blood sugar (hypoglycemic), we always do 靜脈注射 by giving them 50% dextrose water in order to bring up their sugar level instantly.

BTW, I don't think you can find those Hammer gel in HK, I've looked at their website, it is being sold in Singapore and Malaysia though.

[ 本帖最後由 lvrunner 於 2008-8-18 10:28 編輯 ]

作者: desmond 時間: 2008-8-19 11:53

原帖由 lvrunner 於 2008-8-19 02:20 發表

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.
Hi yungwai hing,

Definitely, we call it "glycogen debt". It is always a good idea to carry a couple of glucose tabs (simple sugar) when doing LSD or marathon. This is also why carbo-loading i ...

Thank you lvrunner c-hing, maybe the hammer gel will be sold later in HK. looking forward to it.

作者: Alfred 時間: 2008-8-20 07:23

原帖由 yungwai 於 19/8/2008 11:53 發表

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Thank you lvrunner c-hing, maybe the hammer gel will be sold later in HK. looking forward to it.

It's better our web site to be the dealer

作者: kopo1128 時間: 2008-8-22 16:13

原帖由 lvrunner 於 2008-8-13 10:24 發表

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Hi kopo hing, The guy that qualified for Boston using the FIRST program is 43 years old, his latest marathon time was 3:17. He lives in Rochester, New York, tons of snow in winter time and he doesn ...

I have done my LSD run for 30km on last Saturday. It started the running at 6:30am and finished at 10:00am. I supposed to run 35km but due to the hot weather, I quited at 30km. Overall, I am feeling ok with the 30km run and I can have another 1hr swimming on Sunday. The only problem that I have is the hot weather and the cushining effect of my shoes is not good and I started to feel pain at the bottom of my feet after around 25km running. I think I must buy a pair of new shoes for LSD with better shock absorption. But one interesting thing is that I feel painful at the bottom of my feet last time when I just finished 15km running but this time it started at 25km. If there is more training, will this pain cease? Also, I have brought with myself some candies with glucose. I took some when I felt tired. It works but whether it is common to take glucose candies during running. I thought it is easier to bring candies with me than the bags of power-gel.

ching ctse, any opinion??

作者: lvrunner 時間: 2008-8-24 06:01

原帖由 kopo1128 於 2008-8-22 00:13 發表

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I have done my LSD run for 30km on last Saturday. It started the running at 6:30am and finished at 10:00am. I supposed to run 35km but due to the hot weather, I quited at 30km. Overall, I am feeling ok with the 30km run and I can have another 1hr swimming on Sunday. The only problem that I have is the hot weather and the cushining effect of my shoes is not good and I started to feel pain at the bottom of my feet after around 25km running. I think I must buy a pair of new shoes for LSD with better shock absorption. But one interesting thing is that I feel painful at the bottom of my feet last time when I just finished 15km running but this time it started at 25km. If there is more training, will this pain cease? Also, I have brought with myself some candies with glucose. I took some when I felt tired. It works but whether it is common to take glucose candies during running. I thought it is easier to bring candies with me than the bags of power-gel.

Hi kopo hing,

Congrats on your long run! You know back in the old days before power bars were even invented, we all used candies or fig bars as fuel. Nowadays, glucose (monosaccharides or simple sugar) is mostly used for emergency purpose only, it is not recommended to take it regularly during LSD. Why? Because of the tendency of runners getting what we called SUGAR CRASH. That is when your body is out of glucose and all of a sudden a rush of glucose goes inside your blood stream causing the brain to trigger a signal to the pancrea to release a bunch of insulin to neutralize those glucose at a speed causing most of the glucose inside the blood to disappear fast. The end result will be more tiring (especially during running) and drowsy. So instead of giving you more energy, it is the opposite around. If you don't like carrying gels, how about those Cliff Shot Bloks or Sport beans? Have you tried any of them?

Also, you may want to try to switch to another pair of better shock absorption shoes and see if it helps. Good luck!

[ 本帖最後由 lvrunner 於 2008-8-23 14:08 編輯 ]

作者: 力 時間: 2008-8-25 13:26

原帖由 lvrunner 於 2008-8-13 04:45 發表

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各位師兄/師姐,

此 FIRST training program 是北美洲一個極之popular嘅program, target to runners that don't want to run so many days. If you are really interested about it. I strongly suggest y ...

I'd searhed public library, CWB & TST Page One bookstore, some of the Commerical Press bookstore, ...... but the result is negative

. Any C-hings saw this book in HK?

作者: 瘋瘋 時間: 2008-8-25 13:39
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作者: kopo1128 時間: 2008-8-25 15:01

原帖由 瘋狂跑步機 於 2008-8-25 13:39 發表

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小弟想從十月開始LSD訓練, 請問每次跑完用咩方法令腳底冇咁疲勞, 暫時只想到用冰水滲腳, 但要滲幾耐呢?

我用安美露, 好似得得0地. 不過, LSD後的腳底真的很累和很"冤"痛. 但冰敷的感覺又不好.

作者: kopo1128 時間: 2008-8-25 15:06

原帖由 lvrunner 於 2008-8-24 06:01 發表

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Hi kopo hing,

Congrats on your long run! You know back in the old days before power bars were even invented, we all used candies or fig bars as fuel. Nowadays, glucose (monosaccharides or simpl ...

LV Ching, I didn't realize taking glucose candies has such terrible consequence.

I have also brought along with me some energy bar. However, I found it is difficult to take during running. Powergel is good but it is quite sizable and I wonder the Powergel may also contain simple sugar and whether it will cause fatal problem if we take this gel improperly.

作者: 力 時間: 2008-8-25 15:39

原帖由 kopo1128 於 2008-8-25 15:06 發表

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LV Ching, I didn't realize taking glucose candies has such terrible consequence. I have also brought along with me some energy bar. However, I found it is difficult to take during running ...

Fatal problems

作者: kopo1128 時間: 2008-8-25 17:11

原帖由 Alex 於 2008-8-25 15:39 發表

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Fatal problems

To describe as Fatal problem is a bit serious but it is in fact not a joke. The sudden drop of glucose level in blood can lead to many problems. I tried one time some years ago. During the football game, I lose conscious and fell down. When I woke up, I lost my memory. The doctor thought I got a stroke but later he found out the glucose level is too low because I ate too less for weight-loss. The doctor said it is very dangerous if the glucose level is too low. This is the reason why I described as fatal problem.

作者: 力 時間: 2008-8-25 17:22
One of the C-hing told me that ate too much energy gel during long run will cause you lose conscious too. I dunno is it same as SUGAR CRASH. In my opinion, preload with carbo stuff (rice, pasta, ...) before marathon is more safe. But in order to solve the "Hit the wall" issue, take 1 to 2 pack of gels after certain distance and runners should solve the rest by his/her mind. Your comments.

作者: lvrunner 時間: 2008-8-26 12:38

原帖由 Alex 於 2008-8-25 01:22 發表

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One of the C-hing told me that ate too much energy gel during long run will cause you lose conscious too. I dunno is it same as SUGAR CRASH. In my opinion, preload with carbo stuff (rice, pasta, ...) ...

Alex hing,

Eat too much gel will cause electrolytes overload, that indeed is fatal!!!

作者: 力 時間: 2008-8-26 16:22

原帖由 lvrunner 於 2008-8-26 12:38 發表

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Alex hing,

Eat too much gel will cause electrolytes overload, that indeed is fatal!!!

FATAL

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